Viewpoint 01: Frederica Brooksworth
We are so excited to announce our first viewpoint with the incredible Frederica Brooksworth.
“It's important that we can create the change.”
—About Frederica
Frederica is a Lecturer in Fashion Management at London College of Fashion, she is also a researcher in EdTech and Fashion Marketing and a Development Consultant. Follow Frederica and her work here.
“Now we have to be honest and just look around us. We all don't look the same. We all don't think the same. We all don't have the same viewpoints.”
— Examples of inclusivity we can learn from
“We are seeing all races. We have seen people from all faith backgrounds also being represented as well. People from various disabilities as well, which I think is absolutely amazing.”
— Frederica’s Actions to create a more inclusive industry
“When it was the Black Lives Matter movement, the resurgence, it was like everyone was quiet…I put out a post ‘Dear fashion industry… just please do better’…And for me, there's one thing to just talk, but I do like action. I took upon myself to put together a six week program called the Black Fashion Futures.”
— What does a fully inclusive industry look like?
“I want people to be able to feel comfortable to work in the space of the fashion industry and actually to feel like they belong, as opposed to having to create this persona, just to make sure that they fit it in.”
— Actions the INDUSTRY can take to make the fashion industry more inclusive
Make networking more open to everyone
Increase representation at all levels of the industry
Diversify representation in all parts of the industry
“We need to have people in the industry that represent essentially people who buy into fashion, people from all different backgrounds”
— Actions WE can take as individuals we can take to make the fashion industry more inclusive
Buy from smaller brands who are inclusive
Stop buying from brands who are not inclusive
Read from more independent publications to diversify your perspectives
“Start buying from smaller brands. Start buying from independent brands. Once people actually start making that conscious decision to do so. We're going to see such huge change in our industry.”
—Transcript
Laura: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone. I hope you're all well and having a lovely day. Thank you so much for joining us on The Inclusive Viewpoint. I am Laura Beattie and this is my sister Rachel and we are the co-founders of The Inclusive Viewpoint. This is a community founded for us all to share ideas, best practices and turn these into actions to create a fully inclusive, fully diverse and full accessible fashion industry together.
Rachel: [00:00:25] We're super excited for our first ever Viewpoint today which is with the incredible Frederica Brooksworth. We met Frederica over three years ago now when she was delivering a talk at the London College of Fashion about her background and her career journey into academia. Now, Frederica’s story is one that we always come back to, particularly in those moments when we're not sure where to go next or we’re having moments of doubts, because Frederica’s story is one of such determination, such kindness, and all combined with her phenomenal talents.
Laura: [00:00:56] As soon as Rachel and I had the idea for The Inclusive Viewpoint, [00:01:00] we couldn't wait to reach out to Federica as she has been such an inspiration and role model to us ever since. So therefore, without further ado, we want to give a very warm welcome to Frederica to tell us a bit more about herself and her career in her own words.
Rachel: [00:01:15] Hi Frederica. How are you?
Frederica: Hi girls. I'm really well, thank you. How are you doing?
Rachel: We’re good thank you. Thanks so much for joining us we’re so excited to have you as our first guest.
Frederica: Honestly, I'm so like quite honoured actually. When you sent me a message ‘Oh, like we're starting this’, I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, this is honestly perfect’. [00:01:34] You both are like the perfect people to have actually started, um, this project. So I'm really excited to join you and support you on this. Um, but thank you. That was a really nice welcome as well.
Rachel:So it'd be great to hear a bit more like about yourself in your own words because we could talk about your day, but it'd be great to hear, [00:01:55] you know, people don't know you already just a bit about your career [00:02:00] really.
Frederica: Sure. So, um, hi everyone. I'm Frederica and I am a fashion academic, but I kind of do a lot of other stuff and we'll get into that. So my background, I studied fashion marketing at the London College of Fashion. And then once I was done with my foundation degree in bachelor's, I moved on to doing a master's degree in fashion, entrepreneurship, and innovation. Whilst I was at uni, [00:02:27] I thought that I actually wanted to go into PR and then I did like quite a few internships and realized this is not for me. There is no way I'm getting into PR. I really cannot do the long hours. I can't stand and sit and smile in people's faces for ages and ages. I'm not really a big fan of going to events all the time. [00:02:50] And like, you know, I don't really drink and stuff like that. So for me, it was like, you know what, it's fun to kind of be in it every now and then, but to do it as a job, I just [00:03:00] don't think it's for me. And then I realized I really liked marketing and it's something that I kind of picked up in my second year of university, when a lot of my friends would come to me and say, ‘okay, we have to do a marketing report’ or ‘we have to do like a branding plan. [00:03:16] Can you please help me on this?’ Because it was something that I studied. So I was like, ‘okay, great’. But one thing I noticed also in that was I really loved showing them how to do it. So then I had this idea, is that okay, maybe I want to go into marketing consulting. So I actually started during being a student actually whilst I was at university. [00:03:34] I actually started doing consulting for a few people that had like independent brands and so forth. But one thing I noticed earlier on was that I didn't like doing the work for people and it wasn't that I didn't like doing it, but I really loved showing them how to do it. So I would, of course, carry out the marketing plan, you know, business plans and so forth. [00:03:54] But for me, it was really about showing them how they could do it themselves, but also [00:04:00] to ensure that they actually understood how it was done. So it's not a thing where you're not expected to do everything because the business owner, but I think it's important that you have an understanding about how things are done. [00:04:10] So I think for me, I started to realize that I really liked teaching. But, I know it sounds weird, I just didn't think that I could make a career of working in the fashion education sector because it's not something that you're taught. You're taught ‘okay, go to university you can be a designer. You can like work in like social media, PR’. But no one ever speaks to you about working in the area of fashion academia. [00:04:33] I think that it’s happening a little bit here and there. But when I was a student, it was like, nonexistent basically. And then the opportunity came up because I did speak to someone, um, it was kind of like a mentor. She was kind of like a mentor to me and I still speak to her now. She's actually an official mentor to me now. [00:04:51] So I've known her for nine years well, yeah, when I first started university and I just said to her, I think I'm really interested [00:05:00] in teaching. I think this is what I would want to do. I think it is also a very interesting point to mention to people that it's okay to grow up not exactly knowing what it is that you want to do. [00:05:10] Because I think that through experience and through maybe studying, you will find your way. And that's how I found my way, because I thought I was going to be a celebrity hairstylist. So I actually went to college and studied hairdressing and then I worked in hair salons for six years. But then it got to a point [00:05:26] I was like, ‘no, I actually want to go into the area of fashion’, I thought it was marketing but here I am in education. So whilst being a student, actually towards my towards like mid second year, I had the opportunity to do a project where I worked with a college, teaching them and fashion marketing. So it was a college, it was a sixth form actually. [00:05:47] And they had a module, it was media, but then the module was developing fashion marketing campaigns. So I did that and I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, I really, really, really enjoyed this’. Like, it was honestly an [00:06:00] amazing experience. And then from that I then got the job at the university working on Saturdays and on weekday evenings on short courses and supporting, um, an, a team, basically it was called widening participation, but it's called Insights. [00:06:15] And what they do is that they support students who come from either low social economic backgrounds or from ethnic minority backgrounds who are probably the first in their family to go to university. And what they do is actually work with them to give them the opportunity to come to the London College of Fashion and to other colleges within the University of the Arts London. [00:06:38] So I did that for about two years, actually working with that team. And I also worked in the library, so that's when I realized, okay, I really do love this whole thing of like fashion education and, um, yeah, further down the line, you know, working at institutions I've been working, you know, I’ve worked at quite a few institutions like the University for the [00:07:00] Creative Arts, Conde Nast College of Fashion and Design. [00:07:03] Um, I'm currently at the London College of Fashion. I even work at like Hult International Business School at times as well. So, yeah, that's currently me, so that's my fashion academia side. Uh, and then I also do consulting still for brands. So I work with brands in areas such as marketing, business development, um, could be sales and just really kind of supporting them with their business. [00:07:27] Um, management structures. Um, it's kind of like, um, wholly. So that's essentially what I also do. I do mentoring for young fashion enthusiasts as well. So for people that may not really have a network or still not sure what it is that they want to do within their field. And then I also have a knowledge hub, Fashion Scholar, um, which is kind of like [00:07:50] what it is I do, so I run like courses, master classes, teaching people, all elements of the fashion business sides. All about [00:08:00] the business of fashion. So your consumer psychology could be fashion law, digital marketing, and so forth. So yeah, that's me. Got my knowledge hub, a fashion lecturer, um, carry out research [00:08:11] and then I also do mentoring and consulting as well. So that was long winded, but yeah, I hope that gives everyone a good understanding about what it is I do.
Rachel: Yeah. I think that's incredible Frederica because it sounds like you have done everything, but in a really great way. And it sounds like, you know, you've really told people, like, don't be afraid to try something. [00:08:31] So you figure out that's not what you want to do. And I think what really came through for us, obviously we know you personally, but I think like what you do is really empowering people because you know how you said like you wanted to teach people, you know, to do it themselves. And I think we really felt that like every time, you know, you speak to somebody or any course you run, it's all about empowering people. [00:08:51] So yeah, thank you so much for sharing that with us. I could honestly listen to you all day
Frederica: Thank you.
Rachel: Um, for the next question we wanted to ask. So Laura [00:09:00] mentioned it at the beginning, but we wanted to find The Inclusive Viewpoint because we wanted it to be a community, you know, to share ideas and best practices and examples that we can all learn from. So it would be really great to hear from you [00:09:13] if there's any examples that spring to mind, you know, it could be brands because I know you said you do a lot of consulting and, you know, institutions, it could be initiatives, um, charities, you know, anything you can think of or leaders or anyone who have really, you know, shown examples of inclusivity being at the heart and really driving inclusivity forward?
Frederica: [00:09:36] Yeah. Do you know, one that comes to mind if I want to bring example that maybe many people know is Edward Ennifula at Vogue. So if we look at British Vogue now, without a doubt there's been a huge transformation. And I think British Vogue really represents what Britain looks like now to me, you know, for, you know, I think [00:10:00] it was like 25 years. [00:10:01] Um, When Alexandra Shulman was involved, it was like, you know, this whole big thing about Vogue being kind of like very white and the models all look the same. It was either them being too slim and not really representing, not even just races, but also what people looks like again, even brands as well. And I think now what we're seeing with Vogue is that you can literally go into a store, [00:10:23] pick up a copy of Vogue and feel comfortable to read it because you're most likely going to see people that look like you. And I think that's great. And I think what I like about Vogue is that it's not just fashion related. It's not just about fashion, but it's telling stories about what's happening with our society. [00:10:42] During this period of like being in lockdown and so forth, it's been absolutely amazing. Like we've seen stories from the, you know, our key workers and frontline workers, people working for the NHS. There was a sales assistant from Waitrose. We had someone working for TFL on the front [00:11:00] cover, um, a young woman who was a Royal Mail postwoman being featured. [00:11:05] And for me, that was incredibly inspiring to actually listen to people's stories, as opposed to just listening to the same stories from the same 20 luxury brands that we have listened to and seen for the past however long. And for me, I really, really like what Edward Enniful has done. We are seeing regular women being featured in the magazines and we are seeing all races. [00:11:29] We have seen people from all faith backgrounds also being represented as well. People from various disabilities as well, which I think is absolutely amazing because now we have to be honest and we just have to be honest and just look around us. We all don't look the same. We all don't think the same. [00:11:46] You all don't have the same viewpoints. And I think it's nice for us to be able to pick up a huge publication that is honestly world-renowned and to be like, ‘wow, this, like, I can see myself in that’. [00:12:00] Men can read it and be like, ‘Oh, do you know what, I really relate with that’. Like recently, um, they had Marcus Rashford on the cover with, and Adwoa Aboah as well. [00:12:08] And for me it was absolutely amazing because I love Marcus Rashford. I'm actually an Arsenal supporter. Even though I’m not a Manchester United supporter. I’m actually an Arsenal fan. However, I really like Marcus Rashford. Um, I've always had like a nickname, I called him my son since he started at Manchester United. I don't, it's so weird. It's like, now that he's really blowing up everybody is like [00:12:27] ‘Oh my gosh. Look at how far your sons come’. I'm like I told you, like, I got a vision that this guy would go on to achieve amazing things. And you know, like he's, he's a footballer, but he's done amazing things. Like, look how he encouraged the Government to make a u-turn on giving, um, students in primary school free school meals. [00:12:46] And to see that being featured in this publication, it's honestly amazing because fashion has an impact on so many different areas of our lives. Again, not even just British Vogue, but also I really loved what Gucci did [00:13:00] when they featured the young girl with Down Syndrome for their campaign. I thought that was absolutely beautiful. [00:13:09] And it's like, we need to see more of that. There are people with so many different disabilities, whether they've seen disabilities or unseen that they’re still uncomfortable and not represented. Even if it's a case of feeling like, ‘should I wear makeup’ or feeling uncomfortable to actually walk into a store and actually, you know, go and purchase from a beauty counter. [00:13:31] But to see that being done from a huge organization, like, come on, that's that, that's why I mean about inclusivity and representation. Again, recently we saw like Burberry. I really liked what they did with one of their latest campaigns with, because of course everyone being in lockdown and so forth, they were will really smart [00:13:50] and they actually got their staff members to wear the clothes and stand outside their homes and take photos. And I thought that was so smart. And it's like, there's so much that we can do [00:14:00] to actually get everyone involved because I feel like now the fashion industry has really just changed and transformed. [00:14:07] It's not the same where it's like the elitists who are in power and, you know, they control how the fashion industry is run, what people should be wearing and so forth. So I feel like now we're starting to see the sorts of, um, sorts of sorts of like, I would say a domino effect. I feel like there's still a lot more that people need to do, but I would say I really enjoyed what Gucci has done, what Burberry have done and also what British Vogue has done. [00:14:33] I think the reason I would also highlight them is because of their history and because of the position that they've kind of like been in, in terms of being these brands that really sort of control and are really dominant in the fashion industry. So yeah.
Rachel: Yeah, no. I think they’re absolutely amazing examples because I think I read a quote from Edward and it was saying, you know, they want British Vogue to feel like, you know, a store that anyone can walk into [00:15:00] and I think they’ve really captured that like [00:15:01] you said they’ve got rid of that elitism and you know, that exclusiveness and really put inclusivity at the heart. Definitely. And I think that's the reason why me and Laura are like really passionate about stuff because I think you agree Frederica, but growing up fashion seems to be very much you know about the way you [00:15:17] know people looked and that they looked a certain way, but I think, but you know, all those examples, you mentioned, it celebrates, you know, um, our differences and the incredible things people are doing like you said Marcus Rashford and the ‘Activism Now’ cover. I think it's just really flipped it all on its head and, you know, celebrating role models, which I think is what it's all about. 00:15:36] So that’s absolutely amazing examples.
So the next question that we wanted to ask you. So I know I joked when I emailed you Frederica saying on The Inclusive Viewpoint, we could have a whole page dedicated to you to share. But I do honestly stand by that because I think for as long as we've known you [00:15:53] and I think probably since you were born, but everything you do has inclusivity, you know, running through the very heart of [00:16:00] it. And if you don't follow Frederica already, I'll share it on the website. But I think all the opportunities and the resources that you share from mine and Laura's perspective would have been inaccessible towards us otherwise. [00:16:12] So I think everything you do is just really driving forward inclusivity. So we wanted to ask you, I know you touched on it a bit, you know, when you introduced yourself, but if you could just share maybe some initiatives that you've been working on in the past or currently, or maybe what you've got lined up, which is all kind of focused on inclusivity in the fashion industry, because I know you've got lots of examples to share.
Frederica: [00:16:37] Yeah. Um, so what we’ve been working on quite a few things, but I think the most recent things that I've been working on is I think following the, you know, the researchers of the Black Lives Matter movement, um, you know, after the unfortunate, um, you know, killing of George Floyd, there was a lot of outrage, especially in the fashion industry, because it was like, [00:17:00] why is no one showing their support? [00:17:03] Why is no one being vocal about what's happening? I mean, when COVID hit, the fashion industry they were doing so much. Let’s raise money, a Covid relief, let’s do this. When, you know, there would be Australian bush fires, it was the same thing. Or, you know, let's come together, brands, you know, were actually doing like limited edition collections to raise money and so forth, you know, putting up Instagram posts and all of these things. [00:17:27] But when it was the Black Lives Matter movement, the resurgence, it was like everyone was quiet. And I thought it was absolutely just disgraceful. I was really upset because it was like, everyone knows that Black culture really, really, really, um, has a huge impact on the fashion industry yet no recognition or anything has given. [00:17:51] And, you know, I put out a post and I was like, ‘Dear fashion industry, like just please do better’. And I just kind of wrote, you know, just different things in how we can do [00:18:00] better. Um, and I think with that, I noticed that a lot of people were also sharing their stories online, how they have been they felt left out of the fashion industry and have felt that it wasn't a place for them to build a career [00:18:13] and so forth. You had people's students sharing their experiences at university being mistreated by their classmates and also their tutors. You get people speaking about the mistreatment from work colleagues and microaggression, bullying and so forth. And for me, there's one thing to just talk, but I do like action. [00:18:33] So one thing I just took upon myself was to put together a six week program called the Black Fashion Futures. So I set that up, um, and that ran from June up until July. And we had weekly sessions where it would be myself and then I would also have an industry expert come in to speak about various topics. [00:18:54] So we spoke about things such as like how to deal with microaggression, bullying in the [00:19:00] workplace. We spoke about, you know, how to ensure that your last name doesn't prevent you from getting the position that you want, how to network effectively, how to communicate effectively, knowing your rights and so many different elements. [00:19:14] We had a fashion psychologist join us. Um, we had someone working in the social media space. We had someone who's a couture designer. So we had different people coming from different backgrounds to come and speak to, um, you know, our learners. And what was great is that we built an amazing community. It was such a safe space because everyone would come and share their experiences. [00:19:39] And literally by like the second week, it was like, we were just all friends, like longterm, like longterm friends, where we were very familiar with each other, people were advising one another, sharing notes, um, you know, sharing resources and so forth. And literally at the end of it, everyone was so emotional and they were like, they [00:20:00] don't want this to end because they were like, in this six weeks, they have learnt more than they have [00:20:05] working in the industry. There are so many things that they've learned, which they know that it will help them from making mistakes. A lot of them have now gotten internships opportunities from the program as well. Even virtual ones, especially during the whole COVID situation. And lots of them have actually gotten mentors now as well. [00:20:28] So it's just been, you know, beautiful to see how this is actually enabled people to kind of take that step forward. So now we've actually decided to continue it by creating a community because the feedback from them was like, they don't want this to end, they want to be able to, even if it's just like once a month come together, you know, have a rant, share [00:20:51] experiences and then to get feedback from one another as well. So yeah, we decided that we're going to continue that as of next month. [00:21:00] Um, so alongside the Black Fashion Futures program, I've also been working with FashMash. So Fash Mash is a community essentially of, you know, fashion insiders and really industry experts, C-Suites experts, founders of prominent businesses. [00:21:19] And, um, I've actually been working with them on a mentoring scheme, which applications have just closed. And it's due to launch next month where we've been working on. But the whole concept is that it is in response to the Black Lives Matter movement. And it's aimed at ethnic minorities and people from low social economic backgrounds as well, giving them opportunity to be mentored by people in these C-suite positions, people that, who they probably would have had, [00:21:49] you know, not had an opportunity to even come into contact with as well. So, you know, that's something that I recognize that a lot of people from ethnic minority backgrounds and also low [00:22:00] social economic backgrounds as well have not had opportunity to just engage with people in the industry. They don't have a network. [00:22:07] Um, so and we know the fashion industry. Is it really about what you know, but it's all about who you know and if you don't have a network, how do you move forward in your career? Because one thing I've always said, and I've been very open about is that my jobs or the jobs that I've received have come literally through my network. [00:22:26] It's either someone has recommended me for a position, although I've had to like go through the process of actually applying, it's still been recommendations that ‘please apply for this, I think you'd be great for this’, ‘could you please come on board and apply for this’ and so forth. So it's all been through my network. [00:22:42] So I've been like, Oh my gosh. If I gotten all my jobs through my network, just imagine everyone else as well, or the people that are in positions, people, we talk about it, it's been through who they know or through recommendations, but for the people that have no network, they really struggle. [00:23:00] So FashMash, it's been absolutely amazing to work with them because [00:23:04] you literally have a network of everyone and anyone in the industry that you would love to connect with. So that's been such a huge, amazing, um, thing to work on. And so those have been the main things that I've been working on at the moment. So yeah.
Rachel: Gosh. Yeah, you've been very busy haven’t you Frederica. I think like with Black Fashion Futures, [00:23:27] I remember when I saw it when you posed on Instagram and I was just absolutely blown away and I think, I think the feedback you've got as well, just shows how needed it is as well and how much there wasn't that community before. So I'm really excited to keep up to date with it and the Fash Mash Young Pioneers as well, because I think with everything you do, there's always such impact and such intent as well. [00:23:48] So I think that's going to be amazing to see about the outcome of those.
Um, so the next question that we wanted to ask, so this is a really open question. Um, but I guess the reason why Laura and I founded [00:24:00] The Inclusive Viewpoint, and I guess the reason why you do a lot of your work as well, which you spoke about is, you know, what does inclusivity mean to you personally? [00:24:10] And what does a fully inclusive fashion industry look like to you? Like, you know, what's the big vision? What are you working towards?
Frederica: I think for me, especially in my area of fashion education is really closing the skills gap for just everyone essentially. I think what's important is that I want people to be able to feel comfortable [00:24:39] to work in the space of the fashion industry and actually to feel like they belong, as opposed to having to create this persona, just to make sure that they fit it in. That's not life. Why work in an industry where you cannot be yourself? It makes no sense. Why work in an industry where when you walk into the room, I'll give you an example. For me, [00:24:59] I [00:25:00] want fashion, essentially the face of fashion education has to change because a lot of people, when they see me, they think I'm a student. In the hallway, they can't sort of like comprehend that a Black woman can be a fashion academic because it's something that they don't necessarily see. And obviously that's a bit, well know a bit, that's a huge issue when I've walked into classrooms, [00:25:21] number one, I look young. Fair enough. However, there is kind of like the disappointment that, ‘Oh, are you going to be teaching me’ because they, a lot of people don't necessarily see ethnic minorities as being, you know, intellectual, because when you go to the library, a lot of the books that you will see are not written by, um, ethnic minorities. [00:25:45] So when you are reading books and when you are reading research papers and so forth, and you're seeing that a lot of books not written by ethnic minorities,I think that has to change. It's something I've been trying to work on to really encourage people [00:26:00] like [00:26:00] get into this space of, you know, ensuring that you're working, whether it's working in marketing, working in fashion education and so forth. So that for students who are Black or who are Asian, um, or who are, um, you know, from a Latin background, they feel comfortable to walk into a room, see someone who looks like them and say, I know that I will get [00:26:24] number one, not just a good education, but I've, I would feel comfortable. I'm not sure going to be bullied because the person who is teaching me is going to ensure it and it's going to be no bullying for instance, because it happens in universities where a lot of students from ethnic minority backgrounds are bullied and are, you know, essentially outcasted and are always sort of pushed aside [00:26:45] due their Race. Again, maybe someone working in the area of marketing, we need to see a lots of, a lot more people, um, in the area of, um, you know, from who are ethnic minorities, but also people who have disabilities that are able to work to [00:27:00] work in these areas, why, if they are working in these areas of marketing, they will ensure that campaigns are inclusive [00:27:08] and I think that's so important when you have people working in a space, whether it's sales, where you can get more people from ethnic minority backgrounds or people from backgrounds where people maybe have disabilities and say, well, you can ensure that people are represented across the whole industry [00:27:26] and that there's a fair balance as well. And I think that's so important is to ensure that people are represented in these and not just at entry level, but also it's important to happen as senior positions because they are the ones who have the ability and who have the control to determine how things are done and how things operate. [00:27:46] So for me, it's ensuring that more people are employed within these areas, but also another area is also to close the skills gap. Because it's great to have people employed in areas, but if people don't have the skills to be [00:28:00] able to actually get things done, then we're going to be stuck in this really stagnant place. [00:28:05] So to see now how digital marketing has become such a huge thing, um, inside, you know, within the fashion industry, but not a lot of people have the skills to be able to create like CGI graphics and to create these 3D digital clothing and so forth. So another example is to be able to teach people so that they have the understanding and knowledge, but also skills [00:28:30] to ensure that they can actually meet the demand. Again with sustainability as well. You know, it's not taught a lot within institutions. So I feel like there just needs to be a change, um, a lot within the industry. The reason why I'm so passionate about making a change within education is because fashion education, not everyone goes to university to go and study. [00:28:53] However, fashion education for the majority of the industry is kind of seen as the gateway [00:29:00] into the industry. So if we’re seen as the gateway, we need to ensure that we create change because most people learn everything they know about fashion through their course. So it's important that we can create the change. [00:29:13] We can get people that represent all types of people, body shapes, skin color, you know, abilities, and so forth. So for me, yeah, I hope that makes sense. That’s a bit of a long winded question but I hope it makes sense.
Rachel: No, that was absolutely perfect Frederica because it just sprung to mind, you know, that, um, classic example where, you know, they ask school children to draw like, you know, a doctor and everyone draws, you know, like a male. And I think like you said, you just hit the nail on the head, [00:29:41] like we need to see people in these positions and, you know, they're the decision makers and like you are, you're now in a place of, you know, influence and decision making, and everything you do is creating that change. So I think we just need more of you Frederica. I think that would solve everything.
Frederica: Thank you.
Rachel: [00:30:00] And the next question you touch on it because I know you said, you know, you're all about talk. Well, obviously it's important to talk, but you need to turn into action. So you might have already answered this question, but we wanted to understand from your perspective on an industry level. So, you know, brands, academia, etc. [00:30:18] What actions can be taken and still need to be taken for a fully inclusive industry?
Frederica: So, I think it begins with, of course, having people in positions who are capable of doing the job. So they're not in the positions because they're friends recommended them and they just look like them. We need to have people in the industry [00:30:41] that represent essentially people who buy into fashion, people from all different backgrounds, as I mentioned previously. And I think once you have people in these positions, what's very important also, um, in times of change is one thing I keep speaking about is that the fashion industry [00:31:00] is bigger than just being a designer. [00:31:02] It's bigger than just being a photographer. It's bigger than just working in social media. There are so many jobs which are not spoken about. They are not glamorized. They are not publicized. And I keep saying to people because I have a lot of people come to me and they're like, ‘Oh, I can't get a job. I really want to do this’. [00:31:21] And I'm like, ‘let me be honest with you. No, one's going to tell you, but there's not enough room for everyone to be a fashion buyer’. Literally in one company you will probably have in the fashion buying department, maybe just like five people, because you're going to have like, um, a junior buyer, your buyers admin assistant, you’re going to have, um, you know, then an assistant buyer and then a buyer. [00:31:43] So you're going to have like just maybe five different levels, but only five people can literally fit into the area. However, there are so many different fields within just that industry that you can go into. We think about marketing, it was like, ‘Oh yeah, I want to work in marketing’. Marketing is huge. [00:32:00] Where do you want, what do you want to work in? [00:32:01] You've got email marketing. You've got social commerce. You have got digital marketing. You've got like data analytics. You've got cost relationship management. You have got, um, pricing where people that work in the area of like psychological pricing, for instance. So there are so many different industries and so many different areas that you can work in, which you can actually get yourself in. [00:32:23] And I keep saying to people, if you can think outside the box and fill the positions that no one's filling, you can guarantee that you can actually get yourself infiltrated into the industry. And I keep saying to people like yep, stop focus, focusing on the whole, ‘Oh my gosh. Let's be a fashion designer’ and get so fixated on just certain areas. [00:32:48] Let us represent ourselves in so many different areas. Me going into fashion education, there is still a lack of Black academics and I keep encouraging people come [00:33:00] into it. Yeah. I want to see more people that look like me so that I can feel a lot more comfortable as well. Like, you know, and I, for me, it's just so important that we are represented in so many different areas, not just in terms of positions and hierarchy, but also different industries as well. [00:33:19] I think what's also important for things to change is for people to be open when it comes to networks as well. If we can all network, I think that's what's important is people being open to actually just networking with other people. Because, like I said, the fashion industry is really about who you know, it's not just about what you know, but it's also about who you know, and I think if we are able to,[00:33:45] you know, build more networks to be more open and receptive to getting people involved in things. I think that's something that will really change as well. So just to kind of wind it down to have more people in senior positions that represent all [00:34:00] types of people. So Race, religious backgrounds, abilities and also having people just getting [00:34:08] integrated into different job roles most importantly as well, especially the ones that are not spoken about, the ones that are not actually filled, the ones that are not, um, really popular and oversaturated and also building communities as well and less cliques because we know for sure that the fashion industry is very cliquey as well.
Rachel: [00:34:29] No, I think like what you said because with The Inclusive Viewpoint we wanted to make sure we're interviewing people from different parts of the industry, because I think with Laura and I having, you know, Careaux I think we've really seen all the different parts of the industry like particularly, you know, like pattern cutters and, you know, dressmakers, and I think they're so under celebrated and it means that you know.
Frederica: Honestly.
Rachel: and under glamorized as well, so like you said, you're getting students going you know, ‘I want to be designer and wants to be a buyer’, but like you said, there's all these other roles, [00:35:00] which are absolutely vital to the fashion industry that are completely underrepresented. [00:35:04] So I think that's such a good tip. I think as well like you said with the networking as well because I think Laura and I have like found that a lot when we've gone to networking events and it's quite hard because I feel like people, you know, everyone's guilty of it, but people like to, you know, talk to who they know, but I think what something Laura and I, and I know you practice Frederica [00:35:23] is trying to take a chance on people who don't normally have a chance taken on them. Because I think that's where you can make the most difference. And so I think that's really, really good pieces of advice.
So the final question as well is, obviously we wanted The Inclusive Viewpoint to be a community but we wanted to ask in your opinion, what can we do as individuals, you know, as consumers day-to-day, what actions can we be taking to, you know, drive forward that fully inclusive industry?
Frederica: [00:35:56] I think, for us, is if we make wise [00:36:00] choices in terms of how, our spending power is very important. So an example is that if there's a brand that, you know, okay, this brand just doesn't represent people. This brand really have an issue when it comes to either Race or when it comes to disabilities or whether it comes to religious backgrounds and so forth. [00:36:20] If this brand is literally not doing its best to actually support people in these areas, stop buying from them. If there's a brand that's not being sustainable and you have a huge, like, yeah, you're really all about sustainability and you think that, okay, you know, brands need to become more sustainable, which they should definitely do stop buying from them. [00:36:39] But for one person, one thing I should say is that start buying from smaller brands. Start buying from independent brands. Once people actually start making that conscious decision to do so. We're going to see such huge change in our industry. And I think that's what's very important is that [00:37:00] if people start like one thing, I've decided, one thing I actually made a decision to do is that I've said that I will buy from smaller brands. [00:37:08] And it's something that I just I've always liked to do in person is buying from smaller brands. And that's because I really like specific things. And I find it a bit overwhelming sometimes going to big brands, and it's also like everyone's wearing it. Why not go and find something different. Beauty brands, [00:37:24] I love sourcing out new beauty brands, whether even nail polish, like the nail polishes I wear are from brands that people probably never heard of. But I love it when I start to see a pattern of these brands really becoming big, because people have decided to actually, you know, commit to them and actually saying we're going to spend with this brand for instance. [00:37:46] And I think the industry will begin to change. If we stop focusing on just the established brands because they will be okay. Like they will be okay. But we have to think about the smaller brands that want opportunities for people coming up, going to [00:38:00] universities, say they want to start businesses. Or even if people who haven't studied fashion that come from a background of like medicine, which you see a lot of people from coming, coming from backgrounds of like law and so forth. [00:38:11] They are starting out businesses, but if everyone's like, ‘we're just going to buy from Gucci. We're just going to buy from Chanel. We're just going to buy from Fendi’. It's like, what's the point? That isn't fashion, like designer labels just doesn't represent the fashion industry. So I think it's all about how we spend, I think is important as well. [00:38:28] Also when it comes to reading. Like there are so many things amazing, independent, um, you know, like fashion publications that we could read from that we should read from it to get amazing news from. And once we start to do that, we literally have thousands, even tens of thousands start to actually support all these independent, um, businesses. [00:38:50] I feel like we will start to see a more fairer and more thriving fashion industry as well. Because right now, if you think about it, all the [00:39:00] money literally goes to like a little percentage of brands in the fashion industry.
Rachel: Yeah, that is so true. I think that just reminded me, I went to a talk a few years ago and I remember the speaker said like, we are all activists because like, you know, whether you have one follower on social media or your family and friends, you have that power to you know, influence other people, so like you said, it's about us all, you know, [00:39:25] waking up and realizing we all have the power individually and that all adds up to make a massive change. So I think that's like really good advice and yeah, we love championing small brands,[00:39:39] and I know you do it a lot Frederica, so that’s brilliant.
So that was all we had written down. So thank you so much Frederica for your time and sharing your stories and expertise with us. As always, we always learn so so much from you and it's always such a joy to speak with you. We'll make sure we link all the amazing initiatives you're working on and the examples you shared as well, [00:40:00] so people can support and get involved. [00:40:02] But I think that has given us so much to think about and so much to implement. So a huge thank you and I'm really excited to catch up again soon.
Frederica. Amazing, thank you so much for thinking of me and having me. I really enjoyed it.
Rachel: Awww, no, thank you so much Frederica. I’ll speak to you soon.
Frederica: Definitely, take care ladies.