Viewpoint 02: Leanne Maskell
Our next viewpoint is with the amazing Leanne Maskell.
“I wanted to help other people not get in the same situation”
—About Leanne
Leanne is the true definition of an activist- she is a model and author of The Model Manifesto, she does whatever she can to use her experiences, talents and voice to help others. Follow Leanne and her work here.
“Everyone's got a tiny part to play in a gigantic change”
— Examples of inclusivity we can learn from
“ They use a range of different size and skin colours of models …they just do it like automatically. And I think that's really, really amazing.”
— Leanne’s Actions to create a more inclusive industry
UK Women’s & Equality Committee Enquiry into body image ‘Changing the perfect picture’ with the UK Models Working Group
“There’s so many different kinds of disabilities and so many different kinds of representations that need to be made. But I think that with modelling anyway, there's only one kind of beauty standard that's held up”
— What does a fully inclusive industry look like?
“People actually being represented and feeling like they have somewhere to go and where they can see themselves.”
— Actions the INDUSTRY can take to make the fashion industry more inclusive
Declare when photoshop has been used
Declare where the fit of clothes has been altered for photoshoots and campaign imagery e.g. dress pinned/ clipped back
Declare when a maternity model is not pregnant
Do not use child models to model as adults
“I think so many people are terrified of even talking about inclusivity because they didn't want the backlash and they don't want to be shamed. But I think there's real value in learning and doing the work now.”
— Actions WE can take as individuals we can take to make the fashion industry more inclusive
Talk about inclusivity openly with other people
Share your experiences as if it can help one person then it is worth it
“ It's something that affects all of us because basically we're all interconnected…I think it's really important that we all are empowered to take action.”
—Transcript
Laura: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone. Hope you are all well. Thank you so much for joining us on this instalment of The Inclusive Viewpoint. Our Viewpoint today is with the amazing Leanne Maskell. We met Leanne recently as she brought a group of us together to submit evidence to the UK Women's and Equalities Committee who were looking into body image and how body image is impacted by companies, campaigns, advertisements, social media, and government policy.
Rachel: [00:00:27] Leanne wrote the most phenomenal paper to the Government, and we're so grateful to be a part of it. We were so inspired by Leanne. She's a model and she's the founder of the Model Manifesto. And for us, she's a true definition of what an activist is. She is so honest about her experiences and does whatever she can to use her experiences, [00:00:45] talents and voice to help others and particularly to help young models who are coming up through the industry. We know that her legacy will be felt for many years to come and beyond. And she is always working towards driving a fully inclusive, fully diverse and accessible [00:01:00] industry.
[00:01:03] Therefore, it is such an honour to have Leanne with us to share her viewpoints.
Laura: Hi Leanne, it is always such a joy to speak with you. So thank you so much for coming on today and so before we get into it, it'd be really great to hear more about you and the Model Manifesto.
Leanne: Hi, thank you for having me. That was one of the nicest things I've ever heard about myself. I’ll start crying, so thank you and you guys are amazing.
[00:01:28] Yeah. So it's so so nice to be here. Um, me, I. I started modelling when I was like 13 years old. Um, and then it carried on when I went to university in England and I was studying law and then as I was studying, I basically realised that the job I was doing was really, really exploitative and that I was being really badly exploited, which I was kind of aware of.
[00:01:52] I think when you are in it for so long you see other people and that's often what brings up for you because we kind of normalise [00:02:00] it towards ourselves when it's happened for so long. Um, and then I was studying law and just saw stuff to ask them questions basically, which isn't really welcomed in the modelling industry.
[00:02:10] Um, and that kind of made me more and more passionate. And I had like a lot of mental health struggles at that time. Um, and yeah, it was quite lucky for me because I was just like, it kind of I never really wanted to model and that was what was quite lucky in it because, um, I kind of kept finding myself in this addictive cycle with them.
[00:02:31] Um, and then also wanted to help other people not get in the same situation that I was in. So I moved over to Australia and I basically wrote a book, um, which like just started out as a blog and then became really long and came back here. Um, publisher published it, left modelling and got a job. Now I work, I'm at the law society, which I work in the immigration and mental health policies.
[00:02:57] So it's very different to modelling, but very [00:03:00] nice.
Rachel: Wow. I always love hearing your story Leanne because I feel that with everything you do you always have such action behind it and everything you do is about creating change so it’s so great to have you here with us today.
So the first question I wanted to ask, it's all about really, you know, sharing examples that we can all learn from, particularly for a fully inclusive industry.
[00:03:21] So we wanted to ask, you know, in your opinion, is there any example, you know, it might be brands, it might be modelling agencies could be models, leaders, charities, you know, anything that you can think of that has really shown that inclusivity is at the heart of it. and they are really driving inclusivity forwards.
Leanne: Yeah, it's really hard because I think so many in the world that we're in now [00:03:45] anything is pretty much marketing and the brand and that's what is really difficult because I think even the brands are like, I think ASOS are quite diverse and that they've got lots of different categories for different kinds of people and they are always [00:04:00] being seen to do things like brought out a unisex brand recently, and they had a disabled model on, but it's really hard because, um, what we all wrote about in the [00:04:10] response to the Woman and Equality Committee was that a lot of brands because they're making money so essentially they might be inclusive, but it might not actually be at the heart of what they're doing. And it's really hard because why should they really, because they are businesses and they're there for the money it's such a difficult, moral issue, which is why I think there's not representation because it's such a kind of all compassing issue.
[00:04:36] I think that there are really amazing people doing really amazing work and raising awareness. Um, there's a model called Kelly Knox who is disabled and she does really incredible work about raising awareness of disabled models, um, Elena who worked with us. I can't remember her last name or pronounce it basically. [00:04:53] But she’s also a disabled model that just raises really incredible awareness. Um, and [00:05:00] Jameela Jamil also. I love her. She is just incredible. And I think, yeah, it's such a difficult topic to talk about in terms of inclusivity, because as we did in our response, like it's so hard because it's just so many different things that it's like race or transgender issues or disability, and like, even within those it's all [00:05:19] so minute. Maybe a brand will show a disabled model, but then they're trying to just show one version like Elena was saying in our response that she was often asked to be put into a wheelchair when she didn't necessarily need one. And that's really hard because it’s just like a string that you pull and it never finishes. [00:05:39] Um, but it's really important that that strength is pooled. Um, and I think that there are a lot of people that are trying to do really good things out there right now, especially like I've come across quite a few. Like, uh, Oh yeah. That's another one so there’s like a lot of ethical brands are doing great things [00:05:56] and like, you see them trying to raise inclusivity and you've kind of like [00:06:00] quote, ‘real women’ that are not your typical beauty standards. But then as we saw in our response often that will be at the expense of the people that are being included so like that happened really recently for me. Um, there was this brand that were like using women that were sending in stories about their like experiences and like they were being blind casted, which is great because, you know, they’re using real women and it's based on who they are, but they're not being paid. [00:06:27] So they’re doing all the work, given the gift of modelling, but like the modelling products that are like £75 each. It's really hard because what do you do about that? And like, you know, we've kind of reached out some brands, we're going to go meet them. I don’t know how I'm getting involved in this but like, um, because the brand also, like they're not really wearing, they're just a small company and they think, Oh, well, you know, I'm doing these people a favour and giving them pictures of themselves [00:06:56] but it's, it's really hard to remember that, like, this is a job it's [00:07:00] not like fun and like, it might be empowering or it might not be empowering, but at the end of the day, if you're not completely a hundred percent in control and someone's making money off you, that's not empowerment. Um, I do think there's a brand in Australia called ‘Spell’ that are a really, really amazing example of inclusivity. [00:07:18] I'm a massive fan of them and they are based in Byron Bay and they just use a range of different size and skin colours of models without having to make a fuss about it without having to call it like ‘curve’, or they just do it like automatically. And I think that's really, really amazing.
Rachel: Yeah, I think that is so true [00:07:35] because I think like, I know we have the term ‘greenwashing’ don’t we that we hear for sustainability. We need like our version for, you know, diversity and inclusivity, because it's so hard to tell like the genuine intent. And I think what separates it, like you said, is that consistency and like it being normalised and that’s just the way you do things, it's not a marketing and it's not like a token thing before. But I think like what you said is so shocking about the payment thing because part of, you know, of valuing people equally is that you pay people equally like no matter your background, no matter your ethnicity. So I think that's, I’m glad you’re getting involved with that, I know you’ll sort it out very quickly so that’s brilliant.
And so the next question we wanted to ask you. You probably touched on it as well, but just to spotlight the incredible work that you do.
[00:08:23] So you could just share, you know, maybe some of the work that you have done, the work you currently do and or anything you've got planned that really champions inclusivity in the fashion industry.
Leanne: Well, the book, the Model Manifesto hopefully did a good job. Um, it was something I think we all saw this quite recently with the Black Lives Matter campaign. [00:08:47] It's really hard when you're not consciously aware that other people are having really different experiences and how hard that is. Like when I wrote the book, um, in the beginning, I just kind of wrote it from my [00:09:00] experiences. And then I spoke to so many different kinds of models because I realized I didn't have anything in there about male models and I kind of assumed they all are fine or like [00:09:09] big man doing good. And then I spoke to one of them and he told me he'd been sexually assaulted on the shoot and had never told anyone. And like every shoot he'd done, he'd been sexualised and harassed basically, but no one had ever asked him and that's literally because of that stereotype, like I had where you think ‘Oh, danger, bye!’ [00:09:27] And the same with, um, inclusivity like when I was saying that I was speaking to Black, um, and ethnic diversity like ethnic minority models and they were telling me that they had to bring their own foundation to shoots because the makeup artist didn't have their skin colour. And I'm like, how is that possible? [00:09:45] But like a professional makeup artist. Um, but obviously I'm speaking of that from my experience as a white model even though I used to be bullied for having yellow skin at school. But like, yeah, there's just all these different experiences [00:10:00] that you're not consciously aware of until you have the, I guess, reason to go out and speak to people about what goes on to them.
[00:10:07] And like, it's something, I think that, like I said, at the start, it becomes so normalised that you don't even, like, you don't even bother fighting it anymore because you’re just like, Oh, it's just normal. Like some of the Black models I spoke to, um, were saying that what all of them, which I could feel for like at shows, they would be like the only Black model in the room, for example, like just this token model. [00:10:28] And I don’t think I even spoke to any disabled models because like and that's something that I would have definitely changed because I was just because there aren't any, there were like none at all, like knowing model agencies that I knew of represented the disabled models and like that's physically disabled, like mentally.
[00:10:45] Yeah. Technically I'm mentally disabled, having ADHD. And like, it's the same thing. There’s so many different kinds of disabilities and so many different kinds of representations that need to be made. But I think that with modelling anyway, there's only one [00:11:00] kind of like beauty standard that's held up and it just makes everyone feel terrible about themselves. [00:11:05] Um, and then since then, I guess, um, I've tried. Oh, and also definitely about maternity modelling when I was modelling because, um, I was pushed into doing a lot of maternity where I would put on like a fake bump. Um, and then model, I was like 22 years old and I was suffering really badly with depression at that time, because I felt so bad, like modelling to pregnant women and [00:11:30] looking like I was pregnant, my sister was pregnant at the time and she was so angry because she, I think pregnant women go through such hormonal changes anyway about themselves. But then also their body is changing and they do not look like 22 year old size eight models, like strapping on a fake baby bump and having their hair and [00:11:47] makeup done professionally. Um, so it's such a huge ranging issue, but I think since then, I've just really tried to keep it up whenever possible. And like now I do work where I respond to Government [00:12:00] consultations. And then I spotted the body image one alongside Coronavirus ones and disabled people, um, which I will put this fact in here because it wasn't included in our response, which is like in that one, um, it was the impact of the Government's response on disabled people to Coronavirus. [00:12:20] And like, I just learned this fact that blows my mind that ⅔ of people that died from Coronavirus were disabled. Which is just insane.
Rachel & Laura: Oh my gosh!
Leanne: Yeah. It's completely insane. So, and I guess in the fashion industry, one angle of it, and, but there's so many different angles of like representation, not just in fashion, but like law and just things where we're kind of shut out of it.
[00:12:44] If you're disabled, you have no idea what your rights even are usually. Um, and I think it's really important to try and raise awareness about these issues because like disabilities and like any kind of issues, like could happen to anyone at any, like, for example, [00:13:00] maternity, like anything can happen to anyone at any point. [00:13:02] And it's, if we just live like only caring about ourselves and only being aware of like our own lives and it just means that, yeah, you're not as strong. Like it's really, it's a sad world to be in, basically.
Rachel: Yeah because I think that, you know, when we had the call about, you know, the body image response, I think like how it is sharing experiences. [00:13:22] Because I guess like we like to think, you know, like you Leanne, you try, you know, you're engaged in diversity and inclusion and you’re really passionate about it, but even some of the experience you were sharing, you know, Elena was sharing, Rebecca was sharing I know that those are experiences like we'd never heard before. [00:13:37] And it just shows that asking and being an ally, once you’ve heard that which I think, you know, I think the Model Manifesto has done amazingly because it's like, um, an ally for everyone who reads it, so I think that’s absolutely brilliant. So definitely.
The next question we wanted to ask as well. It’s a really open question, but I guess it's the reason why we founded The Inclusive Viewpoint and I know [00:14:00] a reason why you do a lot of your work as well. [00:14:01] But what does inclusivity mean to you personally? And what would, you know, a fully inclusive fashion industry and the wider world look like to you? Like, what are you working towards?
Leanne: [00:14:19] Good questions. Hope you don’t want philosophical answers.
[00:14:23] Um, but I think inclusivity, because like, as a model, you get banded around a lot. And like, I used to work at really big eCommerce websites as a model. When I, everyone looked like me, basically, they were like tall, blonde and thin. Not through choice for being pressured to look that way for a model agencies and things, but that was kind of what we all look like.
[00:14:46] And then suddenly they were bringing over these models from Brazil and they all had plastic surgery. And like, it's not that it's necessarily better or worse, but it made me really angry because I was like these models and like the brands were getting kind of, [00:15:00] sort of good marketing feedback they’re being diverse.
[00:15:03] So I was like, that’s not diverse. They are just using these like Brazilian goddesses with plastic surgery and kind of using that as a, um, racially ambiguous sort of like, look like a catchall being like, look how diverse we are. Like, everyone should look like this. We've used someone with Brown skin colour and it made, it still makes me so angry because I was like, you know, there's going to be how many people looking at that being like, Oh, that's what I'm supposed to be. [00:15:30] You’re not meant to be white and blonde and tall, but like, that's the alternative that’s your, that's what you get given. I think that's really unfair because it's just like, I think the whole media industry is really unfair. The whole capitalism and like, that's really what I think is the issue, because I think people just don't need more clothes. [00:15:47] Like we've all got enough clothes and the problem is that they need to sell them. And the only way to do that is to make you feel bad about yourself and like make you want to buy another white tee shirt to buy into like the lifestyle that you're seeing. [00:16:00] On an image and be like, ‘Oh, if I buy this and I'll look like this person’, And that unfortunately comes with making people feel bad. [00:16:07] I think in the world that we're at most, most of it, rather than being like, ‘well, this person is really great’ like ‘I want to buy into that kind of lifestyle’ rather than thinking, ‘Oh, I hate myself and I need to be thin or whatever’. So for me, I think inclusivity is like, people being actually represented and feeling like they have somewhere to go and where they can see themselves and they can find what, because there's so many different aspects of it as well. [00:16:31] I think in fashion aspect, like for an inclusive fashion industry, it would be somewhere where like, something that blew my mind as well, when we were doing that response is that there are more clothing lines in the world for dogs than they are for disabled people, which is insane. And I think it was in England, the buying power of disabled people, I think it was like £200 billion. [00:16:55] I can't remember - billion or million a year. Um, and then I was like, how is [00:17:00] that possible? Like, that is why it is so great to meet you both because you're doing such amazing things, but it's completely crazy. We're in a world where like that is happening. Um, So I think it's just having a world that like you feel like you’re actually represented and you're not being made to feel bad about yourself and you're not being manipulated [00:17:20] and also because even the whole, the problem I have now with like inclusive brands, like ASOS is that have got these like categories, it's like, they're still categorising people and like, maybe you're not. And that as a whole is the biggest problem for me with modelling is that like, I mean, I'm five foot 11 and my dress size is like a size 8 to 10, but I was always really heavily pressured to get down to like a size 6 to 8 which is just impossible for me [00:17:47] unless I don't eat at all. Um, and the being this kind of in between size for me, where I was like a size 10, it was not accepted. I was called fat and told to lose weight and all of the stuff. But then plus size modelling, [00:18:00] like curve modelling on a, a false for example, would start at like a size 12, which is crazy because the average dress size in the UK for a woman is size 16, so [00:18:11] why on earth have we got these kinds of categories. And even within that, something else that came up in our responses was the dress sizes, like what if - it's like 2020 and there are so many different kinds of bodies. Why are we all expected to fit into this like size 8, size 10, size 12 when we are all different heights, different nationalities, different body types, like different, like literal, like different bodies.
[00:18:35] Some people have not got the same lens as other people. Like, so why have we only got this one kind of like cookie cutter, um, industry, which also isn't even like, I don't think the sizing itself is consistent. So you could be a size 8 in one shop or a size 10 or 12 in another shop, which is [00:18:53] again, really unhealthy because we see people going and trying on the top and the new shop and saying, ‘Oh my God, I'm so fat I [00:19:00] need to lose weight’ and you're like, no, it's just that what is extra small in one shop might be large and another shop. Um, and it's all just, I think it comes from like [00:19:10] manipulating people, which is really, really sad and it makes me pretty angry. So I hope that was an OK answer.
Rachel: So you definitely hit the nail on the head there because I know like when we spoke, I think like when we had the idea for Careaux, like when I was 14, it never made sense like why do we have plus size? Like this is just our personal opinion, because I know there are arguments.
[00:19:30] But like, why is the petite size, why is there plus size, why is there tall? Like why are we constantly trying to fit people into these categories like why aren’t, you know, the clothes, which is man-made anyway, why are they not fitting to us? Yeah, definitely. So I think, like you said, inclusivity needs to be, stopped being tick-boxed and it just needs to [00:19:49] be part of the everyday, isn't it? I think that's where we want to get to. Yeah, that's brilliant Leanne, thank you.
So the final two questions are focused on actions. So I know we shared a few examples and [00:20:00] ideas, but we really wanted to turn The Inclusive Viewpoint, which we know you're all about - action.
[00:20:05] So the first question is, um, I guess on an industry level, what do you think, you know actions still need to be done and can be done to make it more inclusive. I know the Model Manifesto was probably a whole book about this so I will link that. It was just kind of that, you know, if there's any actions that you can think of, concrete actions, that we can do.
Leanne: [00:20:25] Yeah, well, we had the same, I'm just finding the ones that we have because they were, so I think they summarise them up really well in our response. Um, so we said that we think companies should declare Photoshop because I think that's a huge, massive thing, which I guess is more body image than, um, inclusivity actually, maybe not [00:20:45] I don’t know, but I think they should declare when they are using Photoshop, because in France they have this law where they have to declare it and why don't we have that law and also is like misleading advertising. Like in that response, we referenced a Boohoo campaign where the girl had [00:21:00] had her [00:21:00] dress pinned back. And it's like, they do that in so many, um, photoshoots that so people just have no idea about, and it's literally misleading to the customer. And so I think that's a really important one. And then declaring misleading content, like the clipping back of clothes or maternity models that are not pregnant because the same thing, I think this is a good place to start, because I think if you had a declaration that this model is not pregnant, for example, which ASOS have now after a model went onto Love Island and like, but there was a kind of media storm about it, but a lot of other brands still [00:21:36] don't have that at all. Um, any kind of declaration, but like if they had that, then people would at least ask the question, why isn't this model pregnant? And then that would maybe lead to more pregnant models being used. So I think they have to at least tell people what they're saying isn't real for people to start asking questions and then not use children to model to adults is a good one as [00:22:00] well [00:22:00] because like I started when I was 13, most models that I know started when they were a child under the age of 18. And you get scouted on the street, like strangers come up to you and ask you to do this job that you've never considered before. And like with me, I didn't want to do it and this agency asked me to lose weight [00:22:17] and I said ‘no’ and the woman said that she would get fired if I didn't do the job because the agency hadn't picked, I was 18 at that point. Um, but it doesn't really make any difference. Um, but then I did it because I felt bad for this like random stranger and then it's like that kind of world where [00:22:36] young children are being put into these situations where they're being exploited, but what the really bad thing is that like the person on the other end - well it's all bad, but like the consumer has no idea that that happens. They just see a picture of a person in the magazine and think, ‘Oh my God, why don’t I look like this. [00:22:53] I'm, there's something wrong with me’ when actually there's something wrong with the industry. And like, when I was 13 in my first job [00:23:00] was published in Vogue and it was for like a womenswear brand, and it's great because they’re not targeting 13 year olds they are targeting like women, but you would never know that. [00:23:10] So I think those are like quite good places to start. Um, with inclusivity and it is a really hard one, but I think it's something that like the whole world faces because. Um, discrimination is just like systemically embedded into the world that we're in, because it's the same with like we see now with Black Lives Matter [00:23:27] like it's like workplace environments and things like that in terms of recruitment, like it's hard to sort of put quotas on this stuff, but I do think what you're saying earlier about asking questions and not being afraid to listen. Like I think even, I think so many people are terrified of even talking about inclusivity because they didn't want the backlash and they don't want to be shamed. [00:23:49] But I think there's real value in like, for example, me saying, Oh, I didn't talk to enough to disabled models when I wrote the book, because now I'm able to learn from that experience and do work [00:24:00] now for it. Whereas if I was like, ‘I don't care, I'm doing fine’. And I had to kind of cover up your mistakes it means that no one really benefits and the things continue and everyone feels bad about themselves, but like, we're not perfect [00:24:14] and we don't know other people's experiences until we ask and hear about them. Um, and would that we're like brave enough to hear them really, and it is uncomfortable and it does make you feel quite bad that you didn't do that before. But like the important thing is that you're doing it now.
Rachel: Yeah, no, definitely. [00:24:29] I think when you said about the Photoshop as well as I know when, you know, we all talked that was something I hadn't thought about before, because as you, as a model, you know, if then you get your photos back and you don't know if they have been photoshopped and full body image as well, which was something I hadn't thought about, you know, when you see a model in a magazine, et cetera.
Leanne: Well, most models hate themselves. [00:24:49] Like we all literally have the worst self-esteem of anyone you will ever meet because you just get told you're ugly and fat all the time. And then you see these pictures of you, which are like much more [00:25:00] beautiful than you ever think that you can be without like well the hair and makeup. Like now I suffer from quite bad body image still because even like, kind of on a more disconnected level, but yeah [00:25:10] because you just get used to not even being connected to your body at all, like how you look because other people can just, their opinions matter much more than yours, which is not true, like the, in the long run. But like, and that's what it's terrible because other people see modelling and they're like, ‘Oh, you're so lucky’,[00:25:25] ‘you must have such a great life’ and you’re like ‘no, no, no’. And there are people benefiting at the top, but like no one, no one in the main is like winning or benefiting from it.
Rachel: It just honestly breaks my heart because I know when I've heard you talk about that last time, it just broke my heart that you went through that but I’m just so glad that, you know, you wrote the Model Manifesto [00:25:46] using it to help others as well and hopefully we can all come and make sure that, you know, it doesn't happen again because I think it's so important to talk about these things isn't in and turn it into actions definitely.
And then the final question. So [00:26:00] it's again focused on actions. I now you said that as a model, you've been on both sides of the camera. [00:26:04] So, you know, shooting campaigns, but you're also a consumer as well. So I guess what can we be doing as individuals? You as an individual, like anyone listening to kind of day to day kind of push forward for an inclusive industry?
Leanne: That's such a good question. And because I think people like you both are doing such amazing things and I think with all of the issues that we've got with like inclusivity and diversity [00:26:29] it can feel so overwhelming that you're like, ‘Oh, I don't even want to like learn about it because I feel terrible about myself’, but actually I think just like talking to other people, being interested, like coming at it from an open point of view and learning. And like I was finding it really, that’s like why I'm really passionate about talking about Photoshop and things like that, because I think [00:26:51] for anyone when they learn that, that, like, even if, if for example, they with the pregnancy, even if they haven't been pregnant themselves, they probably [00:27:00] know someone that has been, and that would feel upset that there are models out there that are not pregnant or even if they, the same thing of disability, like it's [00:27:09] and race and like, it's something that affects all of us because basically we're all interconnected and we like love each other. We're very cheesy, but like, you know, we all basically love each other and we've got connections. So it does affect everyone at the end of the day, and like, Um, so I think it's really important that we all kind of are empowered to basically take action. [00:27:30] That's the same thing with the book the Model Manifesto, because I kind of knew that it was never going to, and it was really hard to write it, because everyone said, ‘Oh, no one will care about models’ because they were jealous of them. So like, what's the point and you're writing that anyway. But I was always like, if it helps one person, then it's done enough because at least I think when one person [00:27:52] talks about an issue and tells another person, it just spreads and spreads and spreads and like that. So that’s what is great about the world that we're in, especially [00:28:00] social media and like, you don’t have to be this expert on all things diversity, to be able to say like, and to be able to like, listen to others' experiences or like share your own [00:28:11] because I do think like everyone has their own issues, but I feel like underrepresented or everyone has got insecurity, even feels bad about themselves because we're all humans. And I think the more, like we all share that ourselves and realise like you're not alone and feeling like bad about yourself or ugly or fat or whatever stories like you’ve [00:28:34] kind of built up in your head and you realise, ‘Oh, other people also feel that way’ that you think would never ever feel that way. Or like maybe you're comparing yourself to, it really starts to change everything. And that's what has been quite nice of the book is that you see like, models, like they'll be occasionally like a model that will message me and say, ‘Oh, this has helped me so much’ [00:28:52] and I've stood up to my agency and like they have changed my contract and it just means the world. I'm like, ‘Oh, [00:29:00] it’s doing what it's meant to’ and like now there’s a group that I am, there's a group called Models Empowered, like a group of models that have just set up and I did a podcast with them recently. [00:29:11] But it's amazing because they’re just like carrying on that work and I think the more you, like, everyone's just got a tiny part to play in a gigantic change, but like, I think just the world that we're in with social media and stuff can feel like unless you've got a billion followers you like, there's no point in even sharing or even talking about anything because who are you if you've not got like Insta famous, but actually like talking about it to your friends and family, it's like almost more valuable than [00:29:36] just putting something out there on Instagram.
Rachel: Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there Leanne because I think what's coming out of these Viewpoints is that what you said like each and every one of us is an activist. Like, you know, it doesn’t matter just tell you friends, you know, your sister, whatever. It doesn't matter [00:29:51] like who you tell just as long as we're talking about it. And like it all adds up together and we can all like create the fashion industry we want to see because [00:30:00] you know, we need everybody on board to create this. So I think, yeah, that's such a great message. Thank you so much, Leanne.
So these are all the questions we had.
[00:30:08] So we just want to say thank you so much because every time we speak to you you’re so honest in just sharing all your, you know, incredible experiences, and I can just tell that you want to help everybody and create a fully inclusive industry. So thank you so much Leanne for being a part of The Inclusive Viewpoint, and I'm really excited to catch up again soon.